It starts with the morning wait for coffee. Then there are the empty tables at lunch while hungry patrons stand at the hostess stand seething. Everywhere we look we are met with “now hiring” placards and signs of staffing issues. It is one thing to wait on a latte; it is a whole different matter to wait on a cardiologist.
This transcript has been edited for clarity and length.
Mike Sacopulos: My guest today is Tom Rossi. Mr. Rossi is the vice president of executive search for Jackson Physician Search. He is a national expert on physician recruitment and he has over three decades of experience in recruitment and leadership with the healthcare sector. Tom Rossi, welcome to SoundPractice.
Tom Rossi: Well, it’s great to be here. We really appreciate the opportunity to spend time with this group, and our partnership with the association has been wonderful. Great to spend time with so many great people, great minds.
Sacopulos: I thought it might be useful for some of those people who are not familiar, could you tell us about Jackson Physician Search?
Rossi: Many people know the name Jackson because of the locums, the temporary physician recruitment companies that are in our family of companies. But Jackson Physician Search has been the leader in permanent search for about 40 years, and for the last 15 of those years has been led by my friend Tony Stajduhar, who is very well-known in the industry.
In the last several years, we have heard from our clients that there’s really a need for someone who specializes in the search of physician leaders, physicians who can come in and make an impact at the leadership level.
My team focuses on physician leadership search. And we’re the only firm in the country that really focuses just on physician leaders. So, we’ve got a really interesting group to work with and are really enjoying that interaction.
Sacopulos: In October of 2024, Jackson Physician Search and MGMA, the Medical Group Management Association, released a report, “Developing the Next Generation of Physician Executives.” Can you give me the background on how this came to be?
Rossi: Absolutely. We have done different studies with MGMA in the past, and they’ve been a good partner. What we really wanted to find out about is what is the appetite, what’s the interest for organizations and for participants in development programs that develop physician leaders?
You normally see in healthcare development of practice management leaders, development of financial leaders, development of administration leaders, but you seldom see development of physician leaders. And it’s such an important piece of the puzzle that we were excited to study.
And so, with that in mind, we went with MGMA and surveyed several physician practice leaders as well as healthcare system physician leaders on this topic. And we’ve got a really interesting report.
Sacopulos: The report shows growing interest among physicians in leadership roles, especially in areas like department leadership and advocacy. For physicians considering this path, what do you believe are the main drivers of this interest? How can the aspiring physician effectively prepare to transition into these areas, Tom?
Rossi: The driver is that we see many physicians who are interested in having more of a voice in the healthcare system — not just in their care settings, but in the whole healthcare system. They are looking systematically at how they take care of patients and how they take care of their teams. And so, a lot of physicians wanted to step forward, have more voice, share more insight on those types of things.
Physicians want to affect not only the patient outcomes, but [also] the patient experience. That experience when you go to the doctor’s office, when you go for imaging, when you do all these things, how’s that experience for the patient and for the staff and how can we make it better?
Sacopulos: Was there anything that surprised you that came out of the research as you prepared this report?
Rossi: One of the questions we asked was, “Does your organization have any form of physician development activity for physician leaders?” A surprisingly low number responded in the affirmative and 15% said they didn’t know. …I think the fact that so many physicians didn’t even know if their organization had a program or had any semblance of a program tells you this is an area that we do have to put more focus onto, that we do need to spend more time on.
Sacopulos: You’re safely able to put those people in the camp of no program if they don’t even know if it exists.
Rossi: That’s right.
Sacopulos: So how can aspiring physicians effectively prepare themselves for leadership? Because it seems to me you’ve got to have a skill set before you become a leader.
Rossi: You’re right. The first step is to be seen as the clinical leader in your specialty... the go-to person. We recommend that physicians become clinical experts and spend five to seven years on a clinical focus before they step into any leadership roles. That’s one way.
Another thing that employers are looking for is someone who has had a leadership role, so it could be mentoring some of the younger leaders. It could be volunteering to help a committee or a staff or group that’s trying to work on a problem at the hospital or within the group.
Also, the AAPL has a certification called the CPE, Certified Physician Executive, which is really fantastic. That certification helps candidates rise to the top. So that’s another thing that people can do in addition to developing and mentoring others: spend time getting development themselves. Investigate the CPE.
Sacopulos: It sounds like smaller rural hospitals are having difficulty recruiting. Why don’t we talk a little bit about that through the lens of leadership? What about physicians who are looking to head in that direction?
Rossi: I think that’s a continual refrain. And even some of the major metro areas are having problems finding the right physician leaders with the right experience and the right focus.
I would say that you want to make yourself as available as possible. And if you’re an aspiring physician leader, you want to be willing to consider a wider range of geographic possibilities than you might for your clinical opportunity.
The reason I say that is because these opportunities are fewer and far between and the chance to have an impact, even though it may not be in the right state or right setting that you want to retire in, but to have an impact and get that experience, run a profit-and-loss department, all those sorts of things are so important for physician leaders and their growth and development.
Be willing to consider opportunities that you might not consider in a clinical setting, but that you would consider from a leadership perspective.
Sacopulos: Sounds like good advice. Earlier you spoke about programs or the lack thereof that certain organizations have to support physician leaders. What elements are essential to a leadership program that effectively fill in gaps — administrative or business and otherwise?
Rossi: There are many things that an organization can do, even if they don’t have the formal structure to develop a long-term program, such as group learning opportunities. One of the groups that we’ve worked with in the past has made a special effort to have a physician leadership academy where they bring the physician leaders together annually, giving them a chance to have a couple of days of problem solving, of best-practice sharing. So those are really good.
Mentoring. For a physician leader to have a mentor is important, so finding someone that you can go to — maybe someone who’s outside of your organization completely — and have someone you can go to who is willing to talk about problems, talk about scenarios, to get advice from someone who’s been there.
So having a mentor, having group learning.
There’s also a thing called 360 degree feedback, and that can be really helpful for the physician leader when they’re getting feedback from those who are peripheral, those who are below and those who are above the physician in terms of the organizational chart.
The other thing we’ve seen that’s been very effective is executive coaching. A lot of leaders have an executive coach come alongside them and help them to understand some strengths and weaknesses and develop. That can be done for physician leaders too.
Sacopulos: Excellent. Let’s talk a little bit more now from the physicians’ perspective. We know from the great report that your organization and MGMA did that physicians want to have a voice. What can you suggest as far as how physicians could create an environment where their voice is heard and makes a difference?
Rossi: The biggest thing is seeking to solve problems, whether it be patient care, whether it be recruiting and retention for the staff. For any physician, if they could help the team focus on the quality of the care, that’s going to help everybody. That’s a win-win-win.
Sometimes there might be opportunities with committees. If there’s one that interests you, volunteer, get onto that committee, spend time working with people from other departments, from other disciplines, and build those relationships.
Volunteering can really help a physician leader move to that next level and become a candidate for further physician leadership roles as they become available.
Sacopulos: Tom, it occurs to me that sometimes people do the wrong thing, even though they may have the proper motivation. So is there anything that you’d say, “Oh no, please do not do that. That would be the exact wrong thing to do if you’re trying to have your voice heard?”
Rossi: This is a pet peeve of almost every hiring leader that we work with, and the wrong thing to say is, “I’m tired of clinical care. I don’t want to care for patients anymore. I need to do something else, so I think I’ll move into leadership.” That doesn’t garner the kind of focus and respect that you would hope it will.
Your motivation has to come from wanting to do more, wanting to do better, wanting to create systematic change that can help patients, staff, caregivers, all folks across the continuum.
Sacopulos: Very useful and, I think, accurate advice. Technology is rapidly advancing and there are probably some suggestions that you have for our would-be physician leaders on how to deal with technology changes in a way most advantageous for them and for the institution they work for. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Rossi: It’s a real challenge and especially with some of the newer innovations just this last year or so — artificial intelligence, as an example — the problem that we see is that a lot of the organizations are still struggling to even get user compliance with their electronic clinical record, so it’s beneficial to be involved in that and see how things can be bettered in the clinical record.
Now that we have clinical records that are electronic, it’s really important to get as much information as possible in there. That will allow artificial intelligence to mine that information if more data is in there.
The other opportunity that exists is research projects. You can do research locally, but there are organizations that are allowing groups from different markets to come together and do research over a wider group of patients from several different communities and allow that kind of research to have even more focus and do more to help us find more solutions.
Sacopulos: I’m interested in how, if at all, leadership of physicians — the characteristics and skills — needs to vary depending on the organization that they work with. Are there certain skill sets that are more or less important if you are at a 200-bed hospital versus a multifacility hospital system?
Rossi: There are, there are, but I still maintain that for physicians, one of the best skills that they can focus on is their relationship-building skill. Now, that is not taught in medical school and it’s not taught in residency or fellowship, but the physicians who have that or can develop that skill can go across the aisle.
They can sit down with the controller or the CFO and speak their language. If the physician leader has that experience and that temperament to be one who builds relationships and builds communication, builds bridges, they can help people come together from different parts of the organizations that are really normally more siloed.
And a lot of it is also just good listening skills, being able to say, “What are we dealing with? What types of problems can we help solve? How can we be more efficient? How can we be more effective? How can we be more quality focused? What things are needed?” And listen to those answers so that both the patients and the caregivers really feel heard.
Sacopulos: It sounds a little bit to me like the practice of medicine being both science and art, and what you’re describing is more the art part of the equation, which unfortunately is oftentimes overlooked. And I think it’s wildly valuable on the clinical end but also on the leadership end.
Rossi: That’s right.
Sacopulos: And if someone was interested in developing those skills, because you’re absolutely correct, they’re not typically taught, are there things that you could recommend to someone who sees the value and wants to improve his or her skills?
Rossi: I think the American Association for Physician Leadership has a number of great offerings — even just attending either the spring or fall conference, getting to know other physician leaders. Those are really good things to do.
And we talked about the CPE, which is a good credential to have. There are also certifications through the American College of Healthcare Executives and the MGMA.
Everyone thinks, well, if I want to be a physician leader, I need to go get my MBA. And that is by all means a great option. But there are also MHAs out there. There are masters’ in medical management, MMM, which is now available.
There are physician executive MBA programs just for physician cohorts that are really fantastic, but there are also some other degrees, like a master’s in quality management. You don’t have to be a physician to have that, but if you have that and you’re interested and focused on quality, you make yourself valuable to healthcare systems or groups because everyone’s trying to do better on their quality scores, their Leapfrog scores. All of those things are so important for patients and organizations.
Sacopulos: Do you think candidates who have degrees that are not as common as an MBA — does that set them apart from your experience as a recruiter?
Rossi: I think some of these are very valuable, as valuable, if possible, as the MBA. They’re just not as well-known in our physician community or in our leadership community, so I’m trying to spread the word. Now, it does cost money, it costs time, but having that behind you as you try to tackle these issues as a physician leader is really beneficial. And as we said, these things are not taught in medical school.
Sacopulos: Do you see many healthcare systems helping with tuition for a physician, either fully or partially? If someone’s out there, what should they expect and what’s fair to ask for and what’s not fair to ask for?
Rossi: We do. A lot of organizations, because they don’t have enough time or funding to develop their own program, appreciate that the physician is willing to go outside to get leadership, and they want to support that. They see this person as someone who will lead the organization for many years to come, and it’s a good investment. So, I think it’s fair to ask for tuition reimbursement. Some organizations do a full reimbursement on all of those costs’ others do up to a certain dollar amount.
But for a physician leader, it can’t hurt to ask the HR team or others how to get reimbursement. “I want to grow. I want to learn how to be the best leader I can be. How can I get reimbursement?” I think that’s only appropriate to ask.
Sacopulos: Oh, to be so lucky as to have employees who come and want to grow and ask you those questions. It’s good for everyone, don’t you agree?
Rossi: It really is. It’s really a great thing to see. And when you see a physician who wants to do that, you know that they’re concerned about the whole healthcare system and patients, team members, everybody.
Sacopulos: Excellent. The report from Jackson Physician Search and MGMA is “Developing the Next Generation of Physician Leaders.” My guest has been Tom Rossi. Tom Rossi, thank you so much for being on SoundPractice.